Molly’s Observation

Molly, at Complegalitarian, had an interesting observation I wanted to share here about her experience within a church that had a female worship leader:

I do not remember a time when I did not know that “women weren’t allowed to be pastors.” The church I grew up in was a conservative fundamentalist “Bible church,” closely resembling Calvinist-slanting Baptist flavor, if I had to describe it. Women were allowed to be active, but only so much. For example, we had an amazing worship leader who was a woman, clearly gifted and called for the task…but on Sunday mornings, she stood off to one side, still obviously leading, and a man stood at the main microphone, singing slightly off-key, so as to keep God pleased. Women are not allowed to lead men, not even when singing.

Interesting. Molly makes a great observation about just why it’s wrong to designate certain roles on people just because of their gender. I’ve seen similar things like this in church, too, and I’m hoping for a day when attitudes change and people can come to a better understanding of what God would have for people to relate to each other, especially His redeemed people.

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12 Responses to “Molly’s Observation”

  1. Mother of Dog Says:

    You know what’s great about your blog? I completely disagree with you on a number of areas – I’m pro-choice, I’m liberal, I voted Obama. I’m not a Christian. But dang – you are SMART. I love the way you argue your points, and I respect you for them.

    Thank you for sharing your thoughts.

    MOD

  2. Kathleen Says:

    MOD,

    Thanks for visiting my blog! My views are being constantly shaped by my understanding of the world around me and by the things I’ve read in the Bible, as well as listening to the still, small voice of God’s Spirit (it’s not a kooky thing, it’s just what it is).

    I have friends and family who share many different perspectives and I think the key to understandin each other is just listening.

    Many of the things I have been blogging about lately have been the result of coming out of spiritually abusive situations, where people, especially know-it-all people, have used manipulations on the masses in in their teachings that were pugnacious to me.

    A friend of mine who has studied the psychology of it all has helped me to understand the effects of cognitive dissonance. It’s when your heart and reasoning are telling you the man or woman’s teachings in a group setting are not right, but because of the celebrity or perceived authority of the person, you second guess your inner promptings. These guys who do this are also ignoring very clear scriptural warnings to be careful to only preach a clean Gospel of Jesus, and not man’s extra opinions.

    I’ll be coming over to take a look at your blog, MOD (I think that’s cute that you’re your cute dog’s mom).

    I’m not smart. I’ve just walked a difficult path with my Lord, and He’s awesome. Like what Forrest Gump once said, “I’m not a smart man; but I know what love is.”

    🙂

  3. Mother of Dog Says:

    I’ve been really fascinated with the variety of beliefs on a number of blogs. I try very hard not to attack anyone’s belief systems, but I fervently agree that some of these sects can be extremely manipulative. I had to laugh at the pastor who claimed that women should NOT vote – and then sent his wife to vote!

    The danger is that thought becomes the enemy, because – and you are a prime example of this – I think it IS possible to be both devout and thoughtful. To homeschool children via paranoia or fear – that scares me. And to conflate public schooling with Nazism – what good can come of that?

    I may not be certain of Eternal Life, but in this one – I want to be good to others. Any religion that claims hatred and divisiveness lead to grace is well, not my choice.

    My blog is not a manifesto like Kelly’s – actually I’m just a fiction writer -but I find it fun to type out my thoughts. Even when I’m wrong. 🙂

  4. Mrs. C Says:

    Hey….

    I saw this post and thought of you:

    http://spunkyhomeschool.blogspot.com/2008/12/patriarchy-pearls-and-truth.html

    BTW, I do have two kids in public school and I’ll tell ya… I can see very easily where homeschoolers freak out about the public school system. These bureaucrats act as though they own the children in the entire community. The “Child Find” laws alone are enough to scare almost anyone who takes the time to sit down and think about them. FWIW.

  5. Chris Taylor Says:

    Hi Kathleen,

    That is interesting. complegalitarian? That might be a good word. I’ll take a look at her site.

    I thought you might look at the No Greater Joy website on what he calls Patriarchal dysfunctional families (PDF). Interesting stuff. I know you write about all this stuff.

    Take care,
    Chris

  6. debrabaker Says:

    Hi, just found your blog.

    Unlilke MOD, we’re likely in agreement aout much, although I am liberal and voted for Obama 🙂 I’m pro life and am completely astonished in reading what Molly is exposing on her blog.

    The thought of a Christian regarding non-Christian women as bad seed is disgusting at best.

    And people wonder why gays don’t buy the, “Love the sinner and hate the sin,” nonsense that Christians try to put past them.

    And to mask it in such nice sounding words like, “complimentarian,” is nothing short of newspeak. I have lived under a patriarchal system and I have nothing good to report as a result of my experiences.

  7. Kathleen Says:

    Hi Debra and Welcome!

    That article on Molly’s site (I love Molly! I gotta get her link on my blogroll) is very eye-opening. That “bad seed” teaching by Wilson is nauseating. Funny, I remember Jesus turning to the Pharisees (the supposed spiritual leaders of the people), knowing their hearts and who they were spiritual children of and rebuking them. Jesus also said, “Let the little children come to me”. I cannot stand these guys in power with their edicts and opinions on women. Your journey and my journey have some similar traits and yet we would be cast aside as irrelevant by so many patriarchal minds.

    Lately, I’ve found such wisdom and indepth study into the teachings of WHY the Bible says such things as what Paul wrote about the Ephesian women in the church in 1 Timothy, for example. Like what Inigo Montoya said in Princess Bride, “I do not think it means what you THINK it means.”

    Why don’t these “learned master-teachers” do more in-depth study before they hand out drivel? Because they have a power agenda.

    I recently have been studying on whether Junia in Romans 16:7 was a female apostle, which would indicate a position of leadership and influence in the N.T. church. She may also have been the same woman with the Latinized name (for gov’t. purposes) of Joanna who followed Jesus with the other women and disciples and who also met the two angels at the tomb of His resurrection (Luke 8:3 Luke 24). She was married to Chuza, Herod’s steward.

    You can read more here:

    http://christianfeminism.wordpress.com/2008/08/05/the-case-for-junia-the-lost-apostle/

    here’s additional support articles included in that post:

    http://www.churchofgoddfw.com/monthly/junia.shtml
    http://godswordtowomen.org/juniapreato.htm

    Another good article with outside references included is this:

    http://christianfeminism.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/the-mistranslation-of-1-timothy-211-12/

    These are just some of the resources that have broadened my understanding, as I have come across many more over the past year and a half. It’s as if some of the modern book sellers and church leaders will only read it if it comes from Wayne Grudem, or Doug Wilson, or Matthew Henry, and won’t look at other resources with a discerning eye.

  8. Kathleen Says:

    Hi Chris,

    I’ve read that article by Michael Pearl, and though he has redeemed himself a bit from some of his other teachings about “child training” and beating children into submission, and his wife’s shockingly degrading teachings for women that are not biblical and inconsistent, I still find their teachings not my cup of tea.

    I’ve been blessed by the open and informative discussion without condemnation at Molly’s shared Complegalitarian blog, as well as some other websites and books with really good information and scholarship.

  9. debrabaker Says:

    I agree with Kathleen. The Pearls, like a stopped watch can be correct upon occasionally, (like say, 2/86400 of the time.) I wouldn’t rely upon the Pearls wisdom (excuse the pun,) any more than I’d trust my stopped watch to help me get somewhere on time.

    Molly has had some amazing stuff up on her Blog, she is rapidly becoming one of my faves.

    I’ll give those links my attention in the next few days now that I have taken my final final and I have the luxury of time (but today, we’re off to find the perfect Christmas tree!)

  10. debrabaker Says:

    Oh, and anyone who quotes from the Princess Bride is winning points with me 🙂

  11. Kathleen Says:

    My daughter can quote, with all the voice inflections — it’s a gift from God — nearly all the scenes from the Princess Bride. 🙂

  12. Sharing my concerns « Kate’s Chosen Says:

    […] Hey, Chris! I did respond to your comment after you presented the NGJ article to me. Click on over to this comment. Thanks for your input. It is greatly appreciated. Possibly related posts: (automatically […]

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