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What do you think about Mark Driscoll’s preaching on the eternal subordination of Jesus the Son to the Father in the Trinity?

By Kathleen

I was sent a link to a conference that Mark Driscoll spoke at recently (June 2009). The speakers were John Piper, Mark Driscoll, Matt Chandler, and Ed Stetzer. The audio link of Mark Driscoll’s teaching, provided by Desiring God Ministries (Piper’s ministry) is here.

My opinion differs from him on this very important matter in the Personhood and equality of the Son of God, Jesus to the Father in the Trinity.

I’ll quote some of the audio here and continue it in the blog comments, as it is long:

“Qualified leadership: All right … There are leaders here even in the early chapters of Acts. The Apostles and who stands up? Peter. And why? Because he’s first among equals. His name is always listed first in the list of Apostles. —- Even in the Trinity there is ontological subordination, there is, there’s, there’s ontological equality … [he seems to stumble over his meaning here] okay, let me get this right so I don’t have to declare myself a heretic in public. There’s ontological equality and there’s functional subordination. The Father, Son and Spirit are all equal and share all the divine attributes. But when Jesus comes He says the Father sent Me and I do what He asks Me to do and I say what He asks Me to say. Jesus submits Himself to the Father. So, the way it works in the church, all of God’s people are equally God’s image bearers, they’re all equally loved by God. If they belong to Jesus they’re equally saved by God, but there are leaders, there are those who are IN authority. There is functional subordination.”

— continuing in the blog comment section to save space —

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19 Responses to “What do you think about Mark Driscoll’s preaching on the eternal subordination of Jesus the Son to the Father in the Trinity?”

  1. Kathleen Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 3:59 am | Reply

    [For $75 to $125 per person to attend for this 2 day conference, I guess what they teach ought to be pretty biblical, huh?]

    Here’s continuing from the audio:

    “… There are those who have greater responsibility for the oversight. 1 Peter 5 says, “of the flock, the shepherding of God’s people”. Our “day” hates that. [modern culture = hating God's Word] “We’re all the same”, well in one sense, because of God’s grace, we are all equally saved. But in another sense, dad’s need to take responsibility [what about mom's?] for their families and pastors have to take responsibility for their flocks and leaders have to give an account for those who are in their oversight. That’s what the Bible says.

    Some of you, particulary those of you who are young, either because of worldliness from the culture, or cowardice, will not want to be in authority. Or you’ll want to diminish and not USE your authority. Some of you will wrongly use your authority; you’ll become dictatorial and you’ll become autocratic. 1st Peter 5 says to use your authority but not lording it over people; not being harsh mean-spirited and a dictator. And so qualified leadership is ultimately humble leadership. Qualified leadership is male elders: 1 Timothy, Titus 1, as well as deacons. Some of you will have woman deacons; some of you will have men and women deacons. We have men and women deacons; some of you will fight on that point. Qualified leadership 1 timothy, titus 1 — meeting certain criteria of character and competency and courage and Christlikeness. Let me say this: the big problems that you’re having in your church probably start with the fact that you may not have qualified leadership and regenerated members. If the people don’t know Jesus and the leaders are not qualified, you have to start there. You have to evangelize your people and get rid of those leaders who are not qualified. Not qualified.

    [Mark Driscoll goes on to talk about not letting our beliefs that are secondary to the teachings on the Person of Jesus Christ -- the pre trib rapture, leadership, etc. -- divide us as believers. This is precisely why I challenge his teaching on the eternal subordination of the Son Jesus to the Father]:

    Number 5: Unified by the Spirit … this means that we agree to disagree agreeably. It means that we distinguish, what I like to say, is the closed hand and the open hand. We’re gonna fight for these things; we’re gonna discuss and disagree and debate but not divide over these things. Single-issue voters, legalists, moralists, religious folks — they want to argue over what goes in what hand. As leadership, you need not only make a statement of what you believe, but what you don’t believe. You also need to prioritize them. Okay, if you’re one of those guys
    and your doctrinal statement says, “We believe in the verbal plenary inerrancy of Scripture, the sinless life, the substitutionary death and bodily resurrection of Jesus and the Pre-trib rapture of the Church” — you may want to rethink the order of priority. You may want to say, “You know what guys, we will die for the Bible and Jesus. We will suffer paper cuts for the Rapture. That’s about as far as we’re willing to go.” [audience laughter] “Not deep ones.” [audience laughter] Right? But what can happen is if you even put out your doctrinal statements in such a way that it appears everything is of equal priority, it’s hard to maintain unity, ’cause your unity is AROUND THE PERSON OF JESUS AND THE PROCLAMATION OF THE GOSPEL [emphasis mine]. Other things you should hold and have opinions and perspectives on, but to hold unity you’ve got to make sure that which is essential and the central remains central and essential.”

  2. Kathleen Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 4:10 am | Reply

    So, my question for Mark Driscoll and those who agree with his view on the eternal subordination of the Son of God – Jesus, to the Father in the Trinity is this: Has Mr. Driscoll diminished the PERSON and DEITY of Jesus in the Trinity of God?

  3. Kathleen Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 4:12 am | Reply

    Wow. just wow. Mark Driscoll at the Crystal Cathedral.

    http://rzhblog.wordpress.com/2009/06/15/pastor-mark-at-the-crystal-cathedral/

    I guess it takes a lot to maintain celebrity these days.

  4. Kathleen Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 4:23 am | Reply

    I found another blog that voices some serious concerns about Mark Driscoll’s damaging teachings:

    http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/

  5. Kathleen Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 4:30 am | Reply

    This is what freedom4captives blog mentioned that made me remember what Mark just taught in his Advance 09 speech:

    “[If Mark Driscoll is as verbally/emotionally abusive as he appears at times to be, especially in his stage presence and his alleged interactions with several members, then for those who know Mark up close and personal--perhaps the elders who were apparently unjustly fired because they dared to question him and his new By-Laws, perhaps his wife, Grace, and/or perhaps those who are his “friends” and subordinate pastors, etc… --some of this might fit when you think of Mark]:

    Control, control, control. Overtly, and/or covertly. The Passive Aggressive Abuser emotionally and verbally abuses by using sarcasm, ignoring, giving the silent treatment. His tactics are invalidating, “I never said that. You’re perceptions are wrong.” He uses minimizing and countering. It doesn’t matter what the truth is. Truth is disregarded. What’s true is what he says is true, period. He gets you with the passive dagger. It’s all about his efforts to obtain and maintain control and he’ll do whatever it takes to get that. He is a master of manipulation.

    And remember he said this:

    “Some of you will wrongly use your authority; you’ll become dictatorial and you’ll become autocratic. 1st Peter 5 says to use your authority but not lording it over people; not being harsh mean-spirited and a dictator. And so qualified leadership is ultimately humble leadership.

    I guess those elders who questioned Mark’s new By-laws that were fired, were not qualified leaders, according to Mark’s definition.

    Not so among you, said Jesus to his jockeying-for-position disciples.

  6. Kathleen Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 5:07 am | Reply

    Okay, someone needs to tell me why Mark Driscoll is considered worth listening to AT ALL, after this fiasco of a “sermon”:

    http://www.bpnews.net/bpnews.asp?id=30700

    He is just fixated on sexuality. Could you imagine the Apostle Paul? or Barnabas? or John the Apostle saying things such as Driscoll drools out?

    I am astounded that so many men I know love to hear this guy preach!!! He is a christian shock jock!

    This sermon took place recently, and I’m concerned that I was still given a link by friends to listen to his sermon “What is church?” at the Advance 09 conference. Give it 10 years, tops, then the stories will come out of the woodwork.

  7. talialovesyou Says:
    June 28, 2009 at 9:42 pm | Reply

    Well, he preaches male power to men who, I guess, have been indoctrinated into believing that they deserve power.

    About the trinity thing, in my opinion, there’s a greater case for saying there’s no trinity at all than there is for saying there is a trinity, but the persons involved aren’t at an equal level. I think he’s just typically full of ridiculousness, but he’s got so many people fooled because he thumps his Bible around and screams about biblical authority.

  8. Kathleen Says:
    June 30, 2009 at 3:25 pm | Reply

    I found this youtube video of Mark Driscoll on Freedom4captives blog:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6mmTXVTil8&feature=related

    It highlights the manipulative, controlling behavior of this pastor toward those who question the leadership.

  9. Kathleen Says:
    June 30, 2009 at 3:42 pm | Reply

    Freedom4captives blog

    http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/

  10. Kathleen Says:
    June 30, 2009 at 3:50 pm | Reply

    And here’s another person’s perspective and comment section dealing with the experiences and teachings of Mark Driscoll:

    http://rosemswetman.blogspot.com/2006/11/open-letter-to-mark-driscoll_14.html

    http://rosemswetman.blogspot.com/2006/12/meeting-with-mark-driscoll.html

    http://rosemswetman.blogspot.com/2006/11/disappointed.html

  11. Kathleen Says:
    June 30, 2009 at 4:00 pm | Reply

    This blog post, “Speaking of Oppression” is a thought-provoking and insightful look into more of Driscoll’s teachings and rants:

    http://rosemadridswetman.com/2008/04/12/speaking-of-oppression/

    Rose is referencing another blogger’s post, http://kingdomgrace.wordpress.com/2008/04/08/driscolls-doctrine-versus-the-shack/#comments

    It seems that there are enough people who have some serious concerns about Mark Driscoll’s teachings to warrant a closer look, mixed with prayer and knowing what our Bibles actually have written in them.

  12. Ed Says:
    July 13, 2009 at 5:42 am | Reply

    If readers are shock-proof, then I invite them to read “Pretrib Rapture Diehards” on Google and also “Pretrib Rapture Dishonesty” on the “Powered by Christ Ministries” site. Anyone reading these will never be the same again!

  13. Kathleen Says:
    July 13, 2009 at 1:48 pm | Reply

    Thanks, Ed, I’ll take a look at those.

  14. 43. Driscoll Teaches on Qualified Leadership (Did I Hear Laughter?) « Freedom For Captives Blog Says:
    August 20, 2009 at 7:04 pm | Reply

    [...] http://kateschosen.wordpress.com/2009/06/28/what-do-you-think-about-mark-driscolls-preaching-on-the-... [...]

  15. freedom4captives Says:
    August 20, 2009 at 7:11 pm | Reply

    Kathleen,

    Thank you so much for pointing out Driscoll’s teaching on June 2009, and for mentioning my site. I wanted to let you know I mentioned your site on mine and that you inspired me to post on something that has been heavy on my heart for awhile. I also touch on many of the other things you and some of your commenters have mentioned here.

    The two posts I just did this morning which apply are:
    (you are mentioned in the second one)

    http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/42-is-driscoll-really-qualified-to-pastor/

    http://freedom4captives.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/43-driscoll-teaches-on-qualified-leadership-did-i-hear-laughter/

    When I get a chance, I’ll look up those other sites you posted.

    God bless you in your stand for truth and holding leaders to accountability.

    Freedom (Gal. 3:28, and 5:1)

  16. Kathleen Says:
    August 21, 2009 at 4:59 am | Reply

    Freedom,

    It’s nice to meet you.

    I’m burdened with knowing the truth. Especially when it comes to knowing who to listen to in the Body of Christ.

    When the very nature of my Savior and His authority is questioned and diminished, as in the teachings of the “eternal subordination of the Son to the Father”, then Jesus is not lifted up. That can’t be good.

    The Council in Nicea dealt with some of these same heresies.

    I just don’t understand why some people can’t see that Jesus was subordinated in the flesh to fulfill the Law and was perfect in His sacrifice. The references to Him becoming obedient to death, “even death on a cross”, are in Philippians and speak to His perfect obedience while in the flesh on this earth. His is a risen Savior who rules and reigns — how hard is it to understand His perfect majesty and His standing as equal in the Trinity? Maybe I’m just simplistic, but He is the One we are to look to for salvation. For there is no other name by which we must be saved.

    He sent His own Spirit to guide us; He is the representation of God the Father in the flesh. How can people in these teachings think to diminish Him? Because they can only think in the human construct of hierarchies.

    Mark Driscoll’s Acts 29 church program is the model the new congregation I recently joined is structuring itself on. I already voiced my opinion on it and believe I will be looking for a new place of worship. They’ve already adopted, without congregational input, the Acts 29 doctrines such as:

    “We are not egalitarians and do believe that men should head their homes and male elders should lead their churches with masculine love like Jesus Christ.”

    This statement of belief is mixed in with some other, stark different beliefs that they also don’t subscribe to, and in effect, have placed being an egalitarian as being out of sound biblical doctrine or some fringe belief system. I wasn’t pleased with that because I’m studying the different views of egalitarian beliefs and have found very sound biblical arguments, not some crazy extra-biblical beliefs.

    Anything related to Mark Driscoll makes my skin kinda crawl these days.

    Thanks for the mention on your blog. Your blog really has helped me to sift through some of Driscoll’s teachings.

  17. Kathleen Says:
    August 21, 2009 at 5:01 am | Reply

    This is the Acts 29 Doctrine statement:

    http://www.acts29network.org/about/doctrine/

  18. freedom4captives Says:
    August 22, 2009 at 9:46 pm | Reply

    Hi Kathleen,

    Nice to “meet” you too. Yes, it is often very difficult when we learn of yet more “hard” truth in another arena… that’s how I felt when I stumbled upon all this Mars Hill and Driscoll stuff. It was like, ‘AGH! You have got to be kidding me!’ And then I wept…

    I appreciate how you explain “eternal subordination of the Son to the Father” and what you see wrong with it. And, yes, it would appear the Council of Nicea hammered out these issues. Until getting involved with this issue of gender in Christianity and subjugation of women, I hadn’t had to deal as specifically with it as I am now due to the “Complementarians” (aka: Subjectivists) using this as an excuse for eternal subjugation of women, saying, “Well, since Jesus is equal with the Father and forever subjected to Him in authority, it’s easy to see that women are equal to men, but in different roles and are also subject to men forever.” Pretty messed up.

    If you have not yet already done so, check out CBE, http://www.cbeinternational.org
    this is a wonderful resource for Christians wanting to learn about and be supported in biblical gender equality.

    And personally, I’d run from anything Driscoll, including churches cloned after his in his mammoth Acts29 movement. All these young men following hard after him… because Mark is loud, he’s macho, and he’s got the numbers. They perhaps hope that being so themselves will relieve them of their insecurities. Little do they realize that reliance upon such almost always has deep insecurity at its root.

    Freedom

  19. Kathleen Says:
    August 23, 2009 at 12:03 am | Reply

    Freedom,

    You have a great way of putting into words exactly what I’m thinking!

    I’ve also read cbeinternational and had my ideas challenged and changed. The comforting thing is, I’m not alone, as I have a great support at home and across the world of people who are seeing Jesus with their eyes of understanding being enlightened. It’s a great age to be alive, hallelujah!

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